Since UFO Folklore is commited to both sides of every coin, this is a

Rebutal to the OBE Experince !

From Skye Turell

I wrote this in response to the article when it was posted on the UFO
Updates list.  This whole venture is completely bogus.

> Date: Wed, 31 Dec 1997 16:46:04 -0500
> To: "Sensible And Nothing Else UFO Research Into Abductions":;
> From: Joseph Polanik 
> Subject: Dr John Mack and the Investigation of Abductions, 2/n

> Gabbard and Twemlow list 19 features that turn up time and again
> in OBE reports and provide a figures for the frequency with which
> that feature was reported in their sample.

While I appreciate the effort to examine a comparison of OBEs and
abductions, using some standardization of effects/experiences, this is
absurd!  The problem, in short, is that the standardization is vague,
ill-defined, and not much of a standard. (This is poor thinking
masquarading as science.)

>      Number        Common Features of OBEs         %
>      1.    Experience was more real than a dream  94
>      2.    OBE Body similar to physical body      76

Or in the case of abductions, the REAL body is similar to the REAL
body -- now there's a newsflash.

>      3.    Same environment as physical body      62

Maybe it IS the same environment as the physical body!

>      4.    Felt a sense of energy                 55

Is the extra energy generated internally or externally?  Big
difference, and very hard to define.

>      5.    Wanted to return to body               54

LOL! This is funny!

>      6.    Felt able to pass through objects      50

Yeah, but in the OBE experience you don't need to be in the presence
of aliens (or any of their tech) to do so.

>      7.    Felt vibrations in body                38

See comments about energy above.

>      8.    Part of awareness was still in body    37

LOL!  Hopefully, ALL of your awareness is still in your body.

>      9.    Was aware of presence of beings        37

And sometimes a presence is just/really a presence .

>      10.   Heard noises in early stages           37

There's a big difference between the roaring/popping sounds associated
with OBEs and the electronic beeps/hums, etc., experienced in the
presence of spacecraft!  But you would need to have experienced both
in order to make the comparison.

>      11.   Experienced a change in time sense     33
>      12.   Saw a brilliant white light            30

I've never seen a white light during an OBE, but it's hard to imagine
such a light turning the entire exterior of the house into daylight
and having this witnessed by others (not asleep) besides the

>      13.   Felt the presence of guides or helpers 26
>      14.   Dark tunnel with white light at end    26

Are we talking OBEs or NDEs here?

>      15.   Felt attached to phyical body          21

I would hope so.

>      16.   Felt able to touch objects             18


>      17.   Felt that others were aware of them    14

When others are present, this is to be expected.

>      18.   Felt a sense of border or limit        14

What does this mean?

>      19.   Experienced panoramic vision           14

Obviously some of the "other wordly" or "altered" experiences common
to the OBE experience DO fit the abduction scenario and perhaps for
good reason.  There is something very interdimensional, as we all
know.  But we will hardly expand our understanding of EITHER
phenomenon by simply drawing false comparisons and in the process
neatly sweep both under the "well, it's just a dream" or "it's not
REALLY real" rug.

> Here is his overall conclusion:
>     When we closely examine the symptoms of the typical out-of-body
>     experience, and compare those symptoms to those of a typical alien
>     abduction, the similarities are astounding. However, based on
>     physical evidence, it's not reasonable to conclude that all alien
>     abductions are really OBEs in disguise, nor that all OBEs are alien
>     abductions in disguise. However, the similarities are strong enough
>     to suggest that perhaps a fair number of alien abductions have been
>     incorrectly reported as OBEs, and that a fair number of OBEs have
>     been incorrectly reported as alien abductions.

Thanks for the real life demonstration of the limits of logic.  Wrong
assumptions generate more wrong assumptions -- garbage in, garbage

This study makes the same mistake as those that try to corrolate
abduction phenomena with EM phenomena (Persinger's work, for
example).  You can't corrolate vague general statements about lights,
energy or the presence of beings.  Not MEANINGFUL corrolations, at any
rate. The only way to make these comparisons in a valid way is to ask
experiencer of both phenomena to make the evaluation.  If you want to
know the difference between the flavor of chicken and beef, you need
to ask someone who has tasted both.  Any abductee can tell you that
OBEs and abductions are quite different experiences, although they do
have some traits in common.

> <====================================================================
> In part 3: How many of the features common to OBEs and AAEs are also
> features of Awareness during Sleep Paralysis, ASP.

And if this part of the study is conducted with the same faulty logic
as the above, we can expect similar results.

Garbage in, garbage out.


Skye Turell 



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